Love this capture of an all-too-common experience in academia. I remember when I was on the market receiving an HR rejection email TWO YEARS after I had applied 🫠 I will say that if you make it to campus interview phase they *normally* get back to you about it but sometimes they are fighting with upper admin for the line they thought they had (would not shocked if it was rescinded given the current climate in HE - it'll be a miracle if any of us get to keep our jobs in this country). On another note, how much did you hate the teaching demo? My absolute least favorite part of the interview and imo a complete waste of everyone's time. Why not let me film one of my actual classes where I have rapport with my students and share that?!
The teaching demo was so weird. They said there would be students. LOL. Because I structured it as a discussion about a certain topic as a way to weave the conversation into a larger lesson with an assignment, everyone had to role play! I think they were more uncomfortable than I was. Yes! Filming your class would be so much better!
For the last year, this has been a repeated experience. I had even worse than that when I received an e-mail telling me we are looking to see you next week, then no response on time or where, and they disappeared. I am a grown-up man with experience with rejections, but this new ghosting technique- I find it a little bit disrespectful and has no excuses, yet as you notice, it has become the new normal
This is so good, Kim. I was ghosted by an editor after I turned in a piece that he had reached out and asked me to write. As a freelancer you kind of get used to rejection of (and non-response to) pitches. But a ghosting is something different altogether. It is weirdly scarring.
The department and its students would have been lucky to have you.
Ghosting family members (especially parents) is particularly distressing.
It feels like a lack of sensitivity to anyone else’s needs.
Even if those parents were abusive. Spell it out. Say you’re done. Goodbye.
And if they were just average - got some bits right, other bits wrong, unlikely to radically change but still love you?? Seriously?? You feel ghosting is still ok??
I have experienced a lack of follow up from an employer (after an in-person interview) several times. (The practice is not limited to certain professions.) As @JanetCainTheTurning wrote, Why would we want to work for a company that is so disrespectful? Indeed. It's their loss, for sure.
Also, my adult child's therapist ghosted them as well. You're right, Kim, it's horrifying. I was gobsmacked when they told me. They really liked this therapist and saw him for several years. He just disappeared. Some professional! Regardless of the reason and how much he may gave had going on in his life, it's never ok to be rude.
Yuck. I've experienced that, and I've kinda done it too, though I'm ashamed of it. I've been out of the traditional workforce for too long to have had that happen. I'll say I get notice from competitions if I don't get in, and I appreciate that. One friend tried for nursing positions several years back, some during the worst of Covid. She was in her early sixties then, and was ghosted just about every time, after going into interviews, sometimes multiple ones. I think it was ageism plus they had to interview a certain amount of applicants and she was a warm body. (She was offered a couple of jobs, working an intensive care ward for Covid patients, paying $12/hour. I talked her out of those as much as she wanted to help people.) I can also understand hesitation due to potential lawsuits. I had to respond to people calling our office (I was receptionist/go-fer) asking questions about a woman whose name we said as "Evil" after she was fired. I could say nothing about her salary, how long she worked there, why she no longer worked there, despite that no one should ever had had to work with that . . person! (My tone of voice may have, perhaps, relayed some of how I felt, and I think it was read properly as a few people cracked up.) I still think it is unprofessional and says a lot about an organization. How hard is to simply reply, "Thank you. We decided on a different candidate,"?
I’m sorry this happened to you, Kim. I think of academia as “different” than other types of businesses. But not so, really.
I think of this as akin to the demise of customer service. Businesses demand we use their apps to solve our problems with their products. Grocery stores who used to employ check out and nagging personnel now make us do that work in “self checkout.” Now you have to figure out yourself that you didn’t get the job— not even a form letter. We do the businesses’ work (with no training by the way) on our time for free; and so many people are out of decent jobs with benefits. All while the businesses make millions (billions?) for their CEOs and shareholders. I find it infuriating.
We wonder why we’re lonely. We wonder why we’re so tired. We wonder why we feel demoralized by politics and justice systems that value businesses and money over human beings.
Thank you for writing about this cultural shift. It’s so important to name it and call it out. I hope it gives you some closure, too.
This sucks so hard! I noticed the other day that I get a warm, fuzzy feeling now if I get a rejection because it’s become so rare, my heart melts a little. That’s bad!!! I’ve been beaten down into appreciating the bare minimum 🫠🫠🫠🫠🫠
I'm so sorry about this-- I know how things "used" to be with government hiring practices. When you are the head of the committee, It is your job make sure everyone is kept up to date up to and including Loser Letters --I know that's a terrible thing to call them but we did and I got several of my own through the years. I'm appalled at this ghosting - my daughter also works for the government and has far surpassed me on the ladder yet - it's still the same as you say here.
If this were 10 years ago, I would tell you that while Nevada's state gov budget probably began around July 1 (hence the interviews starting about a month before) however, the federal budget begins on October 1 -- making the months from July to October iffy on funding jobs who received portions of their budgets from both. They often leave those jobs open until October and then contact the top 3 candidates and offer yet another interview. Sometimes, the candidates are still interested and sometimes they are not. AND in the meantime, the the candidates are left in a sometimes soul-crushing limbo. Universities and other government entities can just seriously be mean.
On a much brighter note -- beautifully written. I love the photographs you used! The lady in all the photos reminds me so much of my Aunt Betty -- the one who died and rode around in mom's car? Yes, her. She was pretty well all dolled up every day. One last thing -- I saw the sentence about suspending your research for you next book. I can't tell you how happy that makes me! Can't wait to read it!! I have Meth Lunches in hardback and Kindle and go in to read this or that essay. Just to remind me how important the social sciences are. Thanks. Kelli
Oh, Kim - I am saddened for two reasons by this beautifully-written piece. First, that the foolish university treated you this way (no matter how common it is). Second, that if you’d been selected, it might have kept you from us - your dedicated readers. As obviously you wanted the teaching job, I would rather suffer #2 only. Be well. Write on.
Dean! I am not taking any job that prevents me from writing here. Doing this is the most joyful, challenging work I do. Ilook forward to these interactions all week. In fact, I think I'm going to dig in a little more here. Thanks for your support!
Love this capture of an all-too-common experience in academia. I remember when I was on the market receiving an HR rejection email TWO YEARS after I had applied 🫠 I will say that if you make it to campus interview phase they *normally* get back to you about it but sometimes they are fighting with upper admin for the line they thought they had (would not shocked if it was rescinded given the current climate in HE - it'll be a miracle if any of us get to keep our jobs in this country). On another note, how much did you hate the teaching demo? My absolute least favorite part of the interview and imo a complete waste of everyone's time. Why not let me film one of my actual classes where I have rapport with my students and share that?!
Anyway, not hiring you is a major loss for them!
The teaching demo was so weird. They said there would be students. LOL. Because I structured it as a discussion about a certain topic as a way to weave the conversation into a larger lesson with an assignment, everyone had to role play! I think they were more uncomfortable than I was. Yes! Filming your class would be so much better!
‘. . . the cost of hiring a babysitter for two kids under two would cost more than what I could make at the university.’
Kim: this recalls nothing for me so much as my SIL, Physical Science Prof., Chicago.
That said, you have plenty of company.
We keep working and writing ✍️.
right? Had to give up a job i loved and was great at, bc we couldn’t make the numbers work. damned shame. Love to your SIL.
For the last year, this has been a repeated experience. I had even worse than that when I received an e-mail telling me we are looking to see you next week, then no response on time or where, and they disappeared. I am a grown-up man with experience with rejections, but this new ghosting technique- I find it a little bit disrespectful and has no excuses, yet as you notice, it has become the new normal
What???? This is insan, Ahmed. It’s not a little bit disrespectful, it’s very disrespectful. and honestly, I’m embarrassed for them.
Had a great interview at the end of June and am still waiting to hear back… sigh.
Another reason I’m glad I’m old and hiding out in the desert 🏜️
Desert people are (the weirdest and) best people.
No doubt
This is so good, Kim. I was ghosted by an editor after I turned in a piece that he had reached out and asked me to write. As a freelancer you kind of get used to rejection of (and non-response to) pitches. But a ghosting is something different altogether. It is weirdly scarring.
The department and its students would have been lucky to have you.
Ghosting family members (especially parents) is particularly distressing.
It feels like a lack of sensitivity to anyone else’s needs.
Even if those parents were abusive. Spell it out. Say you’re done. Goodbye.
And if they were just average - got some bits right, other bits wrong, unlikely to radically change but still love you?? Seriously?? You feel ghosting is still ok??
I have experienced a lack of follow up from an employer (after an in-person interview) several times. (The practice is not limited to certain professions.) As @JanetCainTheTurning wrote, Why would we want to work for a company that is so disrespectful? Indeed. It's their loss, for sure.
Also, my adult child's therapist ghosted them as well. You're right, Kim, it's horrifying. I was gobsmacked when they told me. They really liked this therapist and saw him for several years. He just disappeared. Some professional! Regardless of the reason and how much he may gave had going on in his life, it's never ok to be rude.
I'm so sorry you're experiencing this. Unfortunately, it is all too common. The university, especially the students, would be lucky to have you.
Yuck. I've experienced that, and I've kinda done it too, though I'm ashamed of it. I've been out of the traditional workforce for too long to have had that happen. I'll say I get notice from competitions if I don't get in, and I appreciate that. One friend tried for nursing positions several years back, some during the worst of Covid. She was in her early sixties then, and was ghosted just about every time, after going into interviews, sometimes multiple ones. I think it was ageism plus they had to interview a certain amount of applicants and she was a warm body. (She was offered a couple of jobs, working an intensive care ward for Covid patients, paying $12/hour. I talked her out of those as much as she wanted to help people.) I can also understand hesitation due to potential lawsuits. I had to respond to people calling our office (I was receptionist/go-fer) asking questions about a woman whose name we said as "Evil" after she was fired. I could say nothing about her salary, how long she worked there, why she no longer worked there, despite that no one should ever had had to work with that . . person! (My tone of voice may have, perhaps, relayed some of how I felt, and I think it was read properly as a few people cracked up.) I still think it is unprofessional and says a lot about an organization. How hard is to simply reply, "Thank you. We decided on a different candidate,"?
I’m sorry this happened to you, Kim. I think of academia as “different” than other types of businesses. But not so, really.
I think of this as akin to the demise of customer service. Businesses demand we use their apps to solve our problems with their products. Grocery stores who used to employ check out and nagging personnel now make us do that work in “self checkout.” Now you have to figure out yourself that you didn’t get the job— not even a form letter. We do the businesses’ work (with no training by the way) on our time for free; and so many people are out of decent jobs with benefits. All while the businesses make millions (billions?) for their CEOs and shareholders. I find it infuriating.
We wonder why we’re lonely. We wonder why we’re so tired. We wonder why we feel demoralized by politics and justice systems that value businesses and money over human beings.
Thank you for writing about this cultural shift. It’s so important to name it and call it out. I hope it gives you some closure, too.
This sucks so hard! I noticed the other day that I get a warm, fuzzy feeling now if I get a rejection because it’s become so rare, my heart melts a little. That’s bad!!! I’ve been beaten down into appreciating the bare minimum 🫠🫠🫠🫠🫠
I'm so sorry about this-- I know how things "used" to be with government hiring practices. When you are the head of the committee, It is your job make sure everyone is kept up to date up to and including Loser Letters --I know that's a terrible thing to call them but we did and I got several of my own through the years. I'm appalled at this ghosting - my daughter also works for the government and has far surpassed me on the ladder yet - it's still the same as you say here.
If this were 10 years ago, I would tell you that while Nevada's state gov budget probably began around July 1 (hence the interviews starting about a month before) however, the federal budget begins on October 1 -- making the months from July to October iffy on funding jobs who received portions of their budgets from both. They often leave those jobs open until October and then contact the top 3 candidates and offer yet another interview. Sometimes, the candidates are still interested and sometimes they are not. AND in the meantime, the the candidates are left in a sometimes soul-crushing limbo. Universities and other government entities can just seriously be mean.
On a much brighter note -- beautifully written. I love the photographs you used! The lady in all the photos reminds me so much of my Aunt Betty -- the one who died and rode around in mom's car? Yes, her. She was pretty well all dolled up every day. One last thing -- I saw the sentence about suspending your research for you next book. I can't tell you how happy that makes me! Can't wait to read it!! I have Meth Lunches in hardback and Kindle and go in to read this or that essay. Just to remind me how important the social sciences are. Thanks. Kelli
Great writing Kim.
You can’t hate academia enough!!!
Oh, Kim - I am saddened for two reasons by this beautifully-written piece. First, that the foolish university treated you this way (no matter how common it is). Second, that if you’d been selected, it might have kept you from us - your dedicated readers. As obviously you wanted the teaching job, I would rather suffer #2 only. Be well. Write on.
Dean! I am not taking any job that prevents me from writing here. Doing this is the most joyful, challenging work I do. Ilook forward to these interactions all week. In fact, I think I'm going to dig in a little more here. Thanks for your support!